route_006 | HMD | June 2012

Entry tags:

how's my driving

HMD | June 2012

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

okay so

i will admit that this should have been addressed during the formulation of the plot but i am admittedly kind of uncomfortable with the way the current caster thing is being handled

namely the fact that triggery material being broadcast over ICly public channels never goes over well. like if it were a private plot that was only between characters who had opted into it then i would have like zero problems. that setup would not put pressure on people who have close cr with robin or kiki but may want to stay out of it because they're uncomfortable with or triggered by the subject material. in that kind of situation, flocks and tws don't really help.

and i am not going to say "well this stuff should never happen in a game like this!" like i said, i am not against the idea of a private plot that touches this kind of material, and i recognize that it would be silly to say "well this character who canonically murders kids in really horrifying ways should never attack children."

like maybe caster could have directed the vid to robin only, and then robin could have contacted someone/a few someones who had opted in to be contacted. something along those lines.

i mean, i think a big chunk of the reason i'm concerned (outside of personal squicks) is that i've seen the fallout from a very similar scenario basically destroy another game. i personally do not have triggers related to this material but honestly i can definitely see how a plot like this would be difficult to avoid for those who do. i kind of doubt that would happen to route since route is way bigger than that game, but honestly i am just kind of getting uncomfortable flashbacks here.

this isn't something like "i'm ~TRIGGERED~ by peanuts because i have a peanut allergy!" and various other things that have made people distrustful of a lot of trigger warnings to begin with; this is child abuse, which is something that at least some of the members of the comm may have experienced, it's a highly triggery subject and i have no idea why this wasn't made opt-in.

the problem i have with it isn't that it's being played out, it's that it's putting a lot of pressure on people for whose characters it would be OOC to not respond to it if it's broadcast to the network at large, but the player may be severely triggered by the material itself. the way it's set up isn't as easy to avoid as you seem to think it is.

nothing of value to add here, just that these are my feelings on it too.

For fucks sake, what were you guys thinking? Did you think at all?

y u p what the other two anons said

i don't think it's going to break the game or anything but just the fact it's basically an hour long video being publicly broadcast and is pretty much torture porn (thankfully not in any real detail, but to anyone who watched the damn thing it would be?) is kind of irking?

it's one thing to have the aftermath of a thing like this posted where the kid would be battered and bruised and need help but having the whole thing broadcast?

i mean we've had people get near death scenario'd and traumatized before by tarantulus back in the day, but those never forced the encounter on the entire network

also in addition the fact the player is asking him to just kind of get off from this scott-free is kind of stupid?

if this kind of thing is going to play out and be public it's extremely unrealistic to expect no one at all to check the jails in goldenrod to see if he got arrested. especially if there's going to be a police bulletin up about him ffs

basically as has already been pointed out, this seems really poorly planned and should have been a opt-in thing

I thought it was opt in. Seemed that way when it was pitched on the plotting meme and CR memes a while back.

well, i meant opt-in in the sense that 'reply here if you want to be involved and it will be made as such that only these characters will have to directly deal with it' kind of way

idk if there is a better shorthand to get that across outside of opt-in but it felt like the right term at the time

The precedent with Tarantulas was a different matter. Things were planned well in advance between Kay and Minnie's players during their torture, and for those who had problems with any part, people stated before the incident came to pass so things could be planned from the end. There was clearer communication not only with those involved but with the moderators as well. With this plot, as it had been mentioned during last month's plotting post with the very clear note that Caster does indeed injure young children and this is in character for him, if there was an issue then it should have been stated before the post was even planned to avoid any and all triggering occurrences.

This issue was not only locked but also under a cut and labeled as a warning. Because of the nature of its content, and the fact that it is a general post and not an obligatory, game-wide plot, no one is expected or required to look at it save for those directly involved in the plot. As with trigger warnings, when someone is triggered, they are not required to look at the material, nor will they be blamed or held accountable for choosing to take the safer route and avoid the post.

All posts on the network are not immediately broadcasted, and it's not a requirement that any character notice or hear every single post. With material that is uncomfortable to a player, the player can choose to have their character not notice or not be within reach of the Gear during the time of broadcast, especially if it is not absolutely necessary. We're not faulting anyone for being alarmed or upset about the post, we are just saying that you don't need to have your character reply to upsetting material and you as a player do not need to to read it if it upsets you. The post was marked, cut, locked, and labeled as having upsetting material underneath. That isn't subjecting or forcing any player or the network into getting involved or reading it.

That being said, we are currently finding a way around the issue at hand to make things more comfortable for the game overall. Caster is not going to get out of this completely scot-free or without punishment. But in the meantime, if you are uncomfortable with your character being involved, do not tag Caster's post or any post related to the plot. Everything will be cut, locked, and labeled so those who do not want to participate will know to avoid it. No one will be blamed for not wanting to take part in it.

In the past, Route has had numerous violent, gory incidents that have far surpassed this in shock and through the gear. So long as it is marked, locked, and labeled, those who are uncomfortable with the matter will never be held accountable for choosing not to read it. They will not have to force themselves to make in character choices detrimental to the player's health. This is no different. We hope that everyone will take heed of the warnings and continue to take a mature, calm approach to solving this matter so that all parties can reach an agreeable resolution.

just saying that it's a bit difficult to ignore it completely when the muns in question - the mods of the game, and i don't know why you deleted the comment pointing this out, bad form there btw - are plurking and flaunting the fact that caster is beating the crap out of kiki.

also, there comes a point where, if there is enough violent shit broadcast for the entire network to see, it becomes OOC simply through word of mouth for characters to not react to it or look for it themselves. "missing" a post once or twice is understandable. more than that, if it's something this shocking? negligence.

Don't have anything to say about the rest of this, but pretty sure it's normal for players to talk about (even enthusiastically talk about) what they're playing on their own plurks. Are people supposed to just shut up about what they're doing because some others don't like it?

don't like =/= triggered by

try again?

plurk had trigger warnings on it.

try again?

(no subject)

these_balls - 2012-06-18 07:27 (UTC) - Expand

It was only plurked about once, and many posts are plurked about when they are made, mod or player. That one plurk in question was also labeled with a trigger warning for violence, and it could have been muted. They weren't flaunting it or plurking and linking it numerous times. That, and we as mods are not in charge of what people plurk. We don't police our player's plurks unless they are being used to start drama in the game, and plurking a post with a clear label about a trigger is not a person going out of their way to start drama. It is just plurking a post with mature themes.

We also haven't deleted anything. Anything starting with "This is a hotass mess" is not something constructive nor does it contribute to anything but adding to drama. It wasn't screened because it points out that there are two mods in question (that could have obviously been seen through checking the taken lists anyway); it was screened because it was unnecessary and dramatic. If such a comment was on a player's response in an HMD, it would have been screened just the same. It's unnecessary.

Route is not a 100% super friendly or G-rated game. With allowing characters who have violent tendencies, things like this happening is within the IC scope of the character. Our biggest safeguard would be to just forbid characters from any mildly violent or non-G-rated canon to be allowed in game, to make sure no one is allowed or capable of going this far. However, that is not going to happen. Therefore, safeguards through cuts, locks, and warnings against this sort of thing are put in place. If the player does not want to know or hear about it, it should not be ICly forced upon them through their CR either.

If a player is triggered by material, they will in no way be forced to have to deal with it, in character or out. That is out of respect of the player. It may bend with the character being IC a little or being fully in the 'know' of the latest happenings in Route, but we're not going to force or stress a player to have to deal with it if they are not comfortable with it. This is also not a very constant occurrence. With this current plot, only a small number (two or three) would be attacked, and not all would be broadcasted the same way, and future plots will most likely happen the same way. However, because of how this has already been handled, we will be changing this and dealing with it once everyone has gotten some rest and has had time to clear their head, and we will be looking into this and trying to find better, more peaceful ways to handle not only this issue but any future ones to follow.

nothing to add to the rest of this, but if it is possible for things to be saved, is it also be possible to erase from the pokégear? if kiki or a friend erased it, then word of mouth is just word of mouth.

We could probably make that a function. Or we could have a glitch where it magically disappears from the Gear. However, this may not be necessary.

That first paragraph literally comes down to "Things were badly communicated to the playerbase, but they still should have come forward about this badly-communicated thing if they had a problem with it." I don't know if that's what you meant to say, but that's how it's coming off. This isn't on the playerbase if that's the case; it's on the players running the plot in the first place.

This was badly-communicated and poorly-planned. You can't fall back on "Worse things than this have happened in the past" for why this should supposedly be seen as okay - the playerbase has shifted since Tarantulas was here. It's shifted a lot. What matters is that players are coming to you now, highly uncomfortable about this, and you can't just dismiss their concerns like that without coming off as condescending. This is bothering several members of your current playerbase, and telling them what the playerbase was okay with over a year ago isn't going to help the situation.

We're not dismissing a thing. I am just saying that while we are trying to find a workaround and a way to change it to adjust to everyone's liking, that NO ONE is required to post to it nor will they be held accountable for choosing to ignore it and not touch the issue. We're not dismissing anyone or anything. We're just saying that no one will be forced to play in it right now.

However, this isn't something that can be fixed in ten minutes. The issue was brought to us late. The plot has more than just Mei and Ara involved; we have to contact the others involved as well, and they are not up right now. We have to change the plot and find a workaround that will reach the conclusion of the plot without upsetting people. I'm addressing it now because the people replying are personally sounding as though this cannot be fixed. It CAN, and it WILL. It will just take longer than five minutes, and it will have to wait a few hours without condescending, dramatic remarks and accusations.

In the past, Route has had numerous violent, gory incidents that have far surpassed this in shock and through the gear.

um. can i just ask what exactly you personally think is on par with this and surpasses a full hour of a young girl being tortured? honestly that is the most ridiculous part of this entire thing to me. if this was some quick and simple broadcast that could easily be overlooked by anyone flicking through the network, sure, i could choose to have my character ignore it. but it's a full goddamn hour of a little kid getting mauled. it might not be in detail or graphically described but i'm pretty sure nothing in route that has been publicly broadcast was that extreme. going by memory, most incidents where someone was badly hurt the broadcast was always the aftermath, not the act itself. tbh that is probably why this is raising so many flags, just as much the fact this is triggerable for some

and yeah as the above first anon said, even if we wanted to ignore this icly, there are going to be other posts relating to it and eventually it's going to be a pretty hard to ignore a word of mouth thing

now i'm not saying this kind of thing is going to ruin the game or violence doesn't belong here, but considering the character doing this is barely around and is going to be conveniently in jail for the next two weeks... then apparently do it again going by above comments and get away with it? this is not the kind of thing that he should be able to get away with twice, since frankly after this more than a few characters would damn well want to lock him up and throw away the key somewhere right as he steps out of the jenny jail. hell, it would probably be extremely ooc for certain characters not to do that

i get it's going to being sorted out and stuff, but this really felt like the possible long-term effects of this weren't given as much or even any real thought as the 'whee i want my villain character to be as cruel and sadistic as he is in canon for a few jollies' making it happen part was

Honestly it kind of weirds me out that Caster is in a game like this in the first place, but sure.

Anon, we've had Hannibal Lector in Route. We've had scientific experiments, the scientists who created those experiments, murderers, drug addicts, and numerous people who torture others in this game. We've never said anything against characters or people who wish to app them, so long as their character can interact with the game as a whole. That's been in play since Route was first opened.

If we took out Caster, we'd have to ban a good slew of characters overall. Plus, this character has actually been in game for over two months now. If there had been an issue with the character being in game at all, someone should have said something to us when they were first brought in.

I agree that we shouldn't ban characters on principle, based solely on their canon or what they do there. If they can be functional in the game, then really, by all means, let them in. But I can see where the anon above is coming from, as I think the problem they're having with Caster is that his entire deal is that he murders/tortures/arguably rapes children. There basically are no other traits, outside of his fixation on Saber, that we're given in canon.

Hannibal Lecter isn't exactly comparable here, because he has other traits - he's enough of a psychological clusterfuck that things can be done with him in-game outside of the cannibalism aspect. This is more comparable to apping, say, the villain from Enzai, who does have traits that make him a valid character and able to be apped, but at the end of the day he's a rapist from a yaoi game. That is why he exists, first and foremost - to rape and torture the character. A lot of people would find his existence in the game itself to be triggering, or at least enough to make them very, very wary and made of side-eye.

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point, because banning characters based on canon would result in a lot of lines being drawn that you understandably do not want to draw. I'm just saying that I think this is where they're coming from - it's not "ban all negative characters!", it's "this character exists only to carry out actions that serve as triggerbait, it bothers me that they're here."

(no subject)

fonic_sight - 2012-06-18 17:41 (UTC) - Expand

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explosivecombat - 2012-06-18 18:36 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-06-18 21:20 (UTC) - Expand

OP

(Anonymous) - 2012-06-18 22:05 (UTC) - Expand

Re: OP

(Anonymous) - 2012-06-18 22:11 (UTC) - Expand

SA

(Anonymous) - 2012-06-18 22:18 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

explosivecombat - 2012-06-18 22:34 (UTC) - Expand

ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2012-06-18 23:30 (UTC) - Expand

+1

(Anonymous) - 2012-06-19 01:30 (UTC) - Expand

+1

(Anonymous) - 2012-06-19 08:07 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

fonic_sight - 2012-06-19 00:17 (UTC) - Expand

I wasn't talking about it being broadcasted, I was talking about the act itself in terms of severity of the action. We once had a character literally trying to gut another character to see how much pain they could take and how far they could get to the "death" one could get in Route. It was sparked through a post (something else was broadcast near it), but they sat and played out the entire scene. I don't remember who the characters were, I just remember reading it. Yes, I understand that most people are having issues with the broadcast. But yes, we've had incidents of torture that have been worse than this.

There's enough of a workaround through word of mouth. If it's harmful to you, it's perfectly okay to find a workaround, even if it's through word of mouth.

However, with the current plot, this isn't much of a concern. While we figure that out, things will most likely be changed to a way where there will be little to no pressure on anyone to feel pressured to have their character be involved.

As for the punishment, not much of a punishment afterward would be necessary because it wouldn't be very relevant at the conclusion of the plot. Caster wasn't going to "get away" with it, it was merely being used as a plot device.

again, i think very few people are having problems with the fact that a pretty horrifying thing happened. i personally do not have a problem with people playing out sensitive subjects. i have a problem with the fact that the sensitive material was publicly broadcast over the network instead of being done in a private log/network post between characters whose players had okayed their involvement beforehand. people should not be forced to bend character so they won't have to participate in a plot that's uncomfortable for them.

honestly, all that i think needs to be done is to make sure that future plots involving sensitive subject matter are contained only to people who want to be involved. like my initial suggestion that caster could make the plot post a private video geared towards robin, who would then contact characters whose players had opted in to the event. i think that would be a pretty good way to handle the rest of this plot-because, again, i am not saying NO TRIGGERY PLOTS EVER. they just have to be monitored and handled more carefully than other plots, that's all.

if that's what you have planned then welp i just threw a lot of things at you that you already knew, but i figured i would throw in my two cents on it. the initial post can't really be retconned out, but i think it would be a good process to have in the future.

(no subject)

fonic_sight - 2012-06-18 17:20 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-06-18 18:59 (UTC) - Expand

ah, well. yeah, i know there were things that were comparable done in game before, sure. but i thought you literally meant there was something publicly broadcast that was comparable, which i would prolly remember if there had been which is why this stood out to me. i've never seen a post that had this many warnings and labels on it, which is a sign in itself. logs? yes. but never a open post that was open to everyone to watch and observe

tbh the fact that caster was apparently going to get away with it in the sense that he'd be set loose again and be able to pull it off multiple times is what really irked me about it. especially the detail of the player asking for the fact he was captured to not go public. that was just being way too unrealistic about the thing. there's no way anyone who was involved with that wouldn't be checking constantly to see if he has been caught... or even further that they wouldn't let everyone know he had been caught... especially considering the personalities of people like say... saber or shirou.

still, i'm glad you guys are taking a step back to adjust this. this could have blown up in a really bad way otherwise. like i said, this really just felt to me like the aftermath of this wasn't given enough consideration as much as the act of getting to do it was

still ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2012-06-19 03:28 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

fonic_sight - 2012-06-19 04:16 (UTC) - Expand

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

no subject

plus fucking one

+10000000

+100000

+ some numbers

Re: + some numbers

Re: + some numbers

Re: + some numbers

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da

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+many, many numbers

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OP

ayrt